> 
> J wrote:

> 
>> On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 16:12:21 +0100, N wrote:

>>> I think such things have to be weighed against who you're with and
>>> whether sensibilities are going to be offended. In a public forum maybe
>>> the rules are tighter.
> <snipped>
>>> a) know me well enough to know I don't mean anything by it and
>>> b) don't contain anyone who would be offended (not the same as not
>>> containing anyone from the group who are the Butt).
> 
> Just because the butt is absent or ignorant of the consequences of
> endorsing it doesn't mean it is not racist.

I thought I'd made it clear that by (b) I did NOT mean the butt of the joke being absent. To take the sexist (towards women) example, I know men and women who find sexist jokes offensive, and I know men and women, who tell, and find, amusing sexist jokes. I wouldn't tell a joke if I thought ANYONE there would find the joke offensive.

>> There's a difference between poking gentle fun and inciting hatred,
>> and everyone will draw the line in a different place. Having been on
>> the receiving end of a fair bit of prejudice myself, and having seen
>> it affect other people around me, I tend to draw that line very
>> conservatively.
> 
> IMO there shouldn't be a line to cross. One is either racist or not racist
> - it's like the supposition that someone can be a little bit pregnant, or
> a little bit dead... poking fun is a dangerous game when one has
> spectators, because not everyone is capable of differentiating between
> ribbing and insulting - we've all met people that think they are
> inoffensive (like me, for example!), when in fact they come across as
> appallingly insensitive.
> 
>>> E.g, I'll be very surprised if many here are offended by this racist
>>> gem:
>>> Q) How can you tell when a plane load of English have landed in Sydney ?
>>> A) The engines have stopped, but you can still hear the whining!
> 
>> No, it's not at all offensive
> 
> It is, however, racist, and could become the root of some fool's future
> prejudice against whingeing poms getting a job in, say, customer
> relations.
> 
> The problem with gentle racism is that it becomes over time incipient
> racism. And incipient racism leads to prejudice, which eventually leads to
> the justification used by some insane but charismatic person, McCarthy,
> Hitler and Ghengis Khan spring to mind.

Agreed. I had just such a debate with some mates recently, basically a friend said racism was no longer a problem, and wouldn't accept that it had simple become less blatant, and hence possibly more dangerous, as a lot people who I would consider racist, wouldn't consider themselves racist. E.g the inherent inertia, if all the board is white and male, then there are probably barriers in their minds to appointing anyone who doesn't fit the stereotype.

The only way to fix the problem long term, IMHO, is for people to live in more mixed groups. It's very easy for people to say they're not racist, if they've never met a black man, for example.

But this is subtly different. If a close, mixed (in colour as well as sex) group of friends are telling lots of jokes, and the odd racist joke, or the odd sexist joke come in, I don't see it as a problem.

I guess I'm just dreaming of a time when we've got far enough that it isn't possible for the stereotypes to matter at all.

I'm going to shut up now, before everyone decides I'm Bernard Manning.

N

> Maybe someone can turn this into a PC versus Mac thread at this point?

Haven't got the energy at the moment, F. (Although they obviously both suck compared to Unix on any hardware.)

I could rustle up a quick vi v. Emacs holy war if that would help?

PC

> On 5 Jun 1998 12:21:35 +0100, P wrote:

>> It wasn't racist, it was quite funny.

> It wasn't racist, but it wasn't funny either...

Well, nearly anything is funny when you're trying to study applied linear statistical models for you last college exam ever...

P

It ain't racist, I should know, I'm born and raised irish. I even went to trinity.

Grow up you sad little person.

P wrote:

>> Two Irish men walk into a pet shop. Right away they...
>>> Keep this racist shit off umr please.

> 
> AT wrote:

> 
>> Two Irish men walk into a pet shop. Right away they...
> 
> Keep this racist shit off umr please.

<scouse> Okay, calm down, calm down. </scouse> I lived in Ireland for 13 years, and consider myself an Irish Citizen. I know that most Irish will take no offence and was really just trying to judge peoples reactions. <Bded knee> I apologise profusely. </Bded knee>

> F wrote:

>> AT wrote:

>> 
>>> Two Irish men walk into a pet shop. Right away they...
>> 
>> Keep this racist shit off umr please.
> 
> <scouse>
> Okay, calm down, calm down.
> </scouse>
> I lived in Ireland for 13 years, and consider myself an Irish Citizen. I know
> that most Irish will take no offence and was really just trying to judge
> peoples reactions.
> <Bded knee>
> I apologise profusely.
> </Bded knee>

R and I have a running debate over groups of people telling self-deprecating racist jokes. Me, I got all my racist stereotypes about jews from jews telling racist self-deprecating jokes. I'm a third Irish, doesn't mean I have any right to condone a racist joke, imo. Someone else says further down this thread that he assumes that his audience knows that he's only taking the piss, that he of course isn't racist and so on. But then people who don't have time to correctly interpret where you're coming from can not only take the joke as racist but also believe its content (i.e. that all people with purple hair use gerbils as dental floss), because it is validated either by the race (or hair colour) of the person telling the joke or by the so-called acceptable context (i.e. punk comedy tv show) of that joke's delivery. From the standpoint of someone who has been both the victim of group racism and an active campaigner against institutionalised racism it seems to me to be best to avoid the question altogether. One day everyone may believe that racial stereotyping is generally done innocently: that day will only come when racial stereotyping isn't generally used to discriminate against minorities.

An English racist, an Irish racist and a Scottish racist walk off a cliff. Good.

F

> Someone else
> says further down this thread that he assumes that his audience knows that
> he's only taking the piss, that he of course isn't racist and so on .But then people who don't have time to correctly interpret where you're coming from can not only take the joke as racist but also believe its content An English racist, an Irish racist and a Scottish racist walk off a cliff. Good.
> 
> F
> 

This "I'm only taking the piss" argument that people use to try and make up after they've said something horrible or offensive is illogical and stupid. The reasoning seems to be "Despite the fact that 99.99% of the time you hear word x it's used to put someone down, I here and now, am not using it like that, but when I call you a "filthy Paki/stupid bitch/ shirtlifter" etc., it actually means, "I really like you."

CL

> This "I'm only taking the piss" argument that people use to try and make
> up after they've said something horrible or offensive is illogical and
> stupid. The reasoning seems to be "Despite the fact that 99.99% of the
> time you hear word x it's used to put someone down, I here and now, am
> not using it like that, but when I call you a "filthy Paki/stupid bitch/
> shirtlifter" etc., it actually means, "I really like you."

There is a huge difference between calling someone any of these names and using a commonly held (by almost everyone) stereotype which noone actually believes to be true anyway but that facilitates a good joke now and again.

P

> There is a huge difference between calling someone any of these names
> and using a commonly held (by almost everyone) stereotype which noone
> actually believes to be true anyway but that facilitates a good joke
> now and again.
> 
> P

Yes, but it depends on the context. If you know the people very well, and you know that they will know what you mean. (If you know what I mean).

CL

> I'm a third Irish

I can't figure out the maths on this at all. Surely parentage percentages are always related to powers of two?

Unless you meant third generation?

PC

> F wrote:

>> I'm a third Irish

> I can't figure out the maths on this at all. Surely parentage
> percentages are always related to powers of two?

> Unless you meant third generation?

Perhaps 1/4 + 1/8 =(roughly) 1/3 where the 1/4 and the 1/8 are on different sides of parentage.

PC

> On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 16:13:45 GMT, J wrote:

> 
>> On Fri, 05 Jun 1998 16:10:29 +0100, MR wrote:

>> 
>>> Now, perhaps it's in light of all these comments, but I thought the joke
>>> was based on the pronunciation of "bungee" and "budgie" in the accent of
>>> the joke's protagonists, and the Irish accent, as written in the joke,
>>> would make the blurring of the two words likely.
>> 
>> I confess that didn't occur to me, but surely it still depends on the
>> fact that they're stupid enough to try it with a budgie?
> 
> No, because the joke didn't imply they were stupid because they were
> Irish. The joke relied on the fact they had to be stupid and Irish A
> subtle but important difference.

Well there we are then. People will interpret the joke in different ways. As this is the case, perhaps it's best not to make it at all. It is generally accepted that those who are racist aren't generally over-burdened with brains (I may be stereotyping here!) and so hearing a joke involving (not even necessarily at the expense of,) a minority group may serve only to fuel their racism.

IMO there is a world of difference between other people telling a joke at the expense of a minority group or a group different to themselves and a member of that group telling the joke themselves. For instance, a non-jew telling a jewish joke to other non-jews feels to me like racism - stereotypes are being reinforced. This may colour the behaviour and attitudes of those that don't know better or who have little contact with jews. I've come up against this sort of stuff all my life and let me tell you it's not pleasant.

On the other hand, I think that this can also be said of a jew who will tell a jewish joke to a group of non-jews - the same applies. I think that this holds true even if the others are laughing with, not at the joke teller - because there will always be people who aren't able to distinguish the difference and will use this to shore up their prejudices. Hence, although I really enjoy listening to jewish stand-up shows, I think that to broadcast them for instance on TV, probably does more harm than good because there is still a lot more under-lying anti-semitism/racism in British society than a lot of people realise. I think that those in this group who like to think that people no longer believe the stereotypes are kidding themselves.

This leaves the other scenario, where the jewish joke teller is telling jewish jokes to a jewish audience. This audience will be laughing at/with themselves. This cannot be construed as being racist, the joke will be on them, by them and cannot lay the group open to accusation of racism by its very nature. Maybe this is the only scenario where these types of jokes can safely be said to cause no damage.

IMO, until we reach a point where racism is no longer an issue and everyone is perceived as being equal, then telling jokes which can be construed in any way to poke fun at those different to the dominant group can only serve to propagate prejudice.

Just my twopence worth......

BTW, did anyone see the programme on racism in football last night? Very timely........

R

> Yeah. Last place for this kind of crass rubbish. Go to
> alt.jokes.racist. This is a newsgroup for rave culture, the last place on
> earth for
> racist stupidity (and if people don't see it as racist then they
> need to think carefully about their own attitudes).

I must say that we should get rid of the term racist and be more wary of discrimination, ignorance and hypocrisy..cos they are better ways of getting the message across.

Anybody can be a wanker.. it's if you use those actions to generalise about people! I remember talking about this subject to a girl who said she had a right to be racist cos her boyfriend had been beaten up by some Asian blokes. Now, i didn't doubt the truth of that but i obviously i tried to point a few things out to her... but some people really won't have it!! Ditch racism as a term.. show people how hypocritical etc such views are!!!

As for the Irish joke... all i can say is that i didn't find it as offensive as that "what is transparent and lies in the gutter" joke that we all know. This is because it wasn't as vicious.

> 
> 
> My god man, get over it.

You don't "get over" having different opinions to someone else.

> I can safely assume that it was meant
> to make you laugh, not at the Irish in particular but at the "budgie
> jumping".

But the joke wouldn't have worked if you'd said Danish instead of Irish. It wouldn't have made "sense". The joke uses the stereotypes anyway, even if you have confidence in all the umrers that we don't believe it. And it reminds the hearers of the stereotype. I'm not saying that was your intention when telling the joke, just that some people might enjoy the 'Irish are thick' implication in it, and the joke "confirms" what they already think.

CL

> F writes:

>> AT wrote:

>>> Two Irish men walk into a pet shop. Right away they...

>> Keep this racist shit off umr please.

> It wasn't racist, it was quite funny.

I see you've been posting as a schizophrenic, P.. :) Two personalities is better than one I suppose.

kod, who knows the truth

R wrote:

> 
> 
> Well there we are then. People will interpret the joke in different ways.
> As this is the case, perhaps it's best not to make it at all.

Huge apologies to all and sundry. Didn't mean to offend. Although I must say I've sent this joke to my cousins and they've circulated it around their school (in Eire) with no complaints. I shall refrain from any humour forthwith.

AT.

AT says...
> 
> R wrote:

>> 
>> 
>> Well there we are then. People will interpret the joke in different ways.
>> As this is the case, perhaps it's best not to make it at all.
> 
> 
> Huge apologies to all and sundry. Didn't mean to offend. Although I must say
> I've sent this joke to my cousins and they've circulated it around their
> school (in Eire) with no complaints. I shall refrain from any humour
> forthwith.

You have my sympathy. I like jokes. So, did anyone hear about that Italian black comedy Film (I forget it's name but it was at Cannes) that is set in a German concentration camp? Now there's a hot potato for this group.

JA

This has been a very interesting few days. I'll let you into a bit of a secret, purely because I'm getting sick of this thread. My cousin Kaitlin (in Eire) asked me to help her with her dissertation which is on the reactions people show to apparent racism and racial stereotypes for a psychology degree. We devised this idea to post a joke which could be construed as either racist or not, depending on your point of view. You've been wonderful, some of the points of view are excellently made (a la R) others are not. It's interesting to see how some people came over very PC and others took it as a linguistic joke. It is of course a joke aimed at the linguistic traits of the Irish but does of course help if you are aware of the Irish=Thick stereotype. It is of course a very bad joke ad not at all funny. Sorry for drawing out this prolonged thread but you've all been wonderfully helpful.

Sorry,

AT. (ps. I'll try and make Kaitlin's dissertation available on the net sometime after the summer)

> This has been a very interesting few days. I'll let you into a bit of a
> secret,

that's terribly good of you.....

> purely because I'm getting sick of this thread.

...."*purely* because I'm getting sick of this thread", "purely because *I'm* getting sick of this thread"....funny, every way that I look at this, you come across as a complete and utter idiot.

> My cousin Kaitlin (in
> Eire) asked me to help her with her dissertation which is on the reactions
> people show to apparent racism and racial stereotypes for a psychology
> degree. We devised this idea to post a joke which could be construed as
> either racist or not, depending on your point of view. You've been wonderful,
> some of the points of view are excellently made (a la R)<snip>

Can't you see what a patronising little twerp you are being....?

> It's interesting to see how some people came over very PC and others took it
> as a linguistic joke. It is of course a joke aimed at the linguistic traits
> of the Irish <snip>

Gosh, of course.....how you must have laughed!

> It is of course a very bad joke ad not at all funny.

You need to be teaching maths or whatever you are 'studying' in a primary school mate - you don't need to speak slowly for my benefit, at least.

> Sorry for
> drawing out this prolonged thread but you've all been wonderfully helpful.

Marvellous.

> Sorry,

I must say, you sound more egotistical and condescending than sorry...maybe it's just a matter of interpretation, eh?

> (ps. I'll try and make Kaitlin's dissertation available on the net sometime
> after the summer)

OK - it might make interesting reading.I'd also appreciate it if you'd pass her/college details on, so that the facts can be verified - as we've been kind enough to provide her with material for her dissertation, then I'm sure that she won't have a problem with this.

R

> ...."*purely* because I'm getting sick of this thread", "purely because
> *I'm* getting sick of this thread"....funny, every way that I look at
> this, you come across as a complete and utter idiot.

Oh God I simply don't believe this. The self-righteous rise again!

What's the problem? You don't want your newsgroup comments to be quoted? Don't post to a public forum!!!

You are annoyed you got worked up for an experiment? Well, to be honest with you, most people I know with deeply held beliefs don't minding voicing them for anyone.

As far as I'm concerned, AT has apologised with a post that showed humility. We all make mistakes!!

It just seems to me the big fat fish can't help but swim round and round in circles in the pond. And guess what? They also happen to be the fish that bit the worm in the first place ;-)

M

M wrote:

> Oh God I simply don't believe this. The self-righteous rise again!

AWWWWOOOOOOOGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

Sorry, that was just my "irony" detector going off.

I hope it's not faulty...

> What's the problem? You don't want your newsgroup comments to be quoted?
> Don't post to a public forum!!!

I can't see where R has said that, M. The problem, as quite clearly stated IMHO, was that AT seemed to think he could just switch the debate off because it was boring him. I think I made reference to that in my reply to him, too.

> You are annoyed you got worked up for an experiment? Well, to be honest
> with you, most people I know with deeply held beliefs don't minding
> voicing them for anyone.

No, it looked to me like R was pissed off about *the way* it was done. As was I, only perhaps my feelings weren't quite as strong, so I let it slide with only a minor moan. Quite a few other people seemed to think the same, but I haven't noticed you attacking them. Maybe my news server's faulty.

Trolling is generally considered very bad netiquette, and that's what this joke was - a troll (assuming it genuinely wasn't being told as a joke). I composed a pissed-off reply to the "sorry folks" post, and toned it down before posting it. Now I almost wish I hadn't.

Also like some others, I'm amazed that the university should suggest this as a way of accumulating data, for all the reasons that've been stated. Choosing UMR as the target is going to produce an even less because of the kind of people who hang out here.

> It just seems to me the big fat fish can't help but swim round and round
> in circles in the pond.
> And guess what? They also happen to be the fish that bit the worm in the
> first place ;-)

AWWWWOOOOOOOGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

Sorry, that was just my "thinly-veiled personal attack" detector going off.

I hope it *is* faulty.

J

J wrote:

<SNIP>
> Also like some others, I'm amazed that the university should suggest
> this as a way of accumulating data, for all the reasons that've been
> stated. Choosing UMR as the target is going to produce an even less
> because of the kind of people who hang out here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I would have thought that, with the exception that we're perhaps more relaxed about mind-altering drugs, have (some of us) a penchant for fluoro, enjoy loud banging music, and are no doubt more computer literate than the average person, we're fairly representative, quite a mixed bunch, aren't we? I mean, looking at just the Irish joke post alone, or particularly looking at that long thread a couple of months back re: the Fridge's door policy at the Pendragon party, some of us are aggressive whilst others are fluffier. T

T wrote:

>> Also like some others, I'm amazed that the university should suggest
>> this as a way of accumulating data, for all the reasons that've been
>> stated. Choosing UMR as the target is going to produce an even less
>> because of the kind of people who hang out here.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> I would have thought that, with the exception that we're perhaps more
> relaxed about mind-altering drugs, have (some of us) a penchant for
> fluoro, enjoy loud banging music, and are no doubt more computer
> literate than the average person, we're fairly representative, quite a
> mixed bunch, aren't we? I mean, looking at just the Irish joke post
> alone, or particularly looking at that long thread a couple of months
> back re: the Fridge's door policy at the Pendragon party, some of us are
> aggressive whilst others are fluffier.

I agree with your last point, but I'm not sure that we *are* a terribly representative bunch.

I'm leaving to one side for a moment the question of whether telling Irish jokes is racist, and considering racism based solely on skin colour. Given all the things that the rave scene stands for to a lot of us, as specifically mentioned in many previous threads throughout the years[1], I reckon that - while there are many ways in which people on this newsgroup differ - you'd get a far lower percentage of racists here than you would elsewhere. And quite probably a higher percentage of people who have strong anti-racism sentiments.

So any sample of UMR is a subset of that non-representative group. All you're finding out is how many people who don't normally consider themselves to be racist will actually take offence at an Irish joke. Which could, I suppose, have been the whole point. :)

J [1] Not necessarily the same from one individual to the next, but certainly with a lot of common ground.

T wrote:

> I mean, looking at just the Irish joke post
> alone, or particularly looking at that long thread a couple of months
> back re: the Fridge's door policy at the Pendragon party, some of us are
> aggressive whilst others are fluffier.

And some of us just like to watch it all unfold :)