D wrote:

> I don't think the occasional light hearted joke about another cultures
> language, lifestyle or way of thinking always does harm. In many cases
> it does exactly the opposite. When I finished reading that joke I had
> warm feelings about how cute the Irish accent can be, not thoughts of
> stupid Irishmen.

Yes D, but you're a sensitive intelligent G, not someone looking to justify their racist views. I agree, I want a society governed by Golden Rule, but that Rule does not stop me from asking someone to stop an activity that I personally and on an individual basis find destructive to that society. Likewise people can (and have) defended those actions/jokes. All it effectively does is allow silly little me to add a couple of names to my 'rather-not-bother' list - which also includes a couple of rank hypocrites and a couple of hospitality abusers... which is my prerogative and presumably my loss. I'd like to be able to think of the Irish as 'cute', but then I'd be being racist in the context of our imperfect world.

But thinking about the alternative to speaking out (which I did, and which many have seen as my being a little over the top), I'd rather be free to make that statement than unable to for fear of reprisal, and that fear is the ultimate expression of the consequences of racism generally. As a freethinker I agree everyone has the right to say anything they like. Similarly, I should be free to point out that to my way of thinking they are wrong. Such freedom is fought for, even on such a petty level as one individual saying 'you can't say wogbox' in passing conversation.

Fascinating argument. I know at least one person who has modified their views because of this thread. I win ;)

F

F wrote:

> 
> D wrote:

> 
>> I don't think the occasional light hearted joke about another cultures
>> language, lifestyle or way of thinking always does harm. In many cases
>> it does exactly the opposite. When I finished reading that joke I had
>> warm feelings about how cute the Irish accent can be, not thoughts of
>> stupid Irishmen.
> 
> Yes D, but you're a sensitive intelligent G, not someone looking to
> justify their racist views. I agree, I want a society governed by Golden
> Rule, but that Rule does not stop me from asking someone to stop an
> activity that I personally and on an individual basis find destructive to
> that society. Likewise people can (and have) defended those actions/jokes.
> All it effectively does is allow silly little me to add a couple of names
> to my 'rather-not-bother' list - which also includes a couple of rank
> hypocrites and a couple of hospitality abusers... which is my prerogative
> and presumably my loss.

Surely if you're such an anti-racist activist then you wouldn't want to shut out people making racist comments. When alls said and done, their can be as many street battles as you like, you can disrupt their organised activities till the cows come home, and you can use the courts to punish those who act against people out of racism, but it's only by actually convincing people how pathetic such views are that they'll ever go away.

> I'd like to be able to think of the Irish as
> 'cute', but then I'd be being racist in the context of our imperfect
> world.
> 
> But thinking about the alternative to speaking out (which I did, and which
> many have seen as my being a little over the top), I'd rather be free to
> make that statement than unable to for fear of reprisal, and that fear is
> the ultimate expression of the consequences of racism generally. As a
> freethinker I agree everyone has the right to say anything they like.
> Similarly, I should be free to point out that to my way of thinking they
> are wrong. Such freedom is fought for, even on such a petty level as one
> individual saying 'you can't say wogbox' in passing conversation.
> 
> Fascinating argument. I know at least one person who has modified their
> views because of this thread. I win ;)

I hope you don't mean me, whilst I apologise for an appallingly clumsy way of trying to make my point, I'll happily stand by my point itself.

Na

On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 18:54:48 +0100, F wrote:

> I'd like to be able to think of the Irish as
> 'cute', but then I'd be being racist in the context of our imperfect
> world.

But surely you can still think the Irish accent as cute without being racist?

D

> Likewise people can (and have) defended those actions/jokes.
> All it effectively does is allow silly little me to add a couple of names
> to my 'rather-not-bother' list - which also includes a couple of rank
> hypocrites and a couple of hospitality abusers...

Dear F

I am hoping dearly that I am already on your 'list', if not please could you add me asap.

> Fascinating argument. I know at least one person who has modified their
> views because of this thread. I win ;)

Yes, glad to see that a post so well considered and articulate as D's can be followed with this one, which quite amazingly manages to loftily patronise and resort to childish point scoring - sometimes in the same sentence. Glad to see that a subject such as racism which you obviously hold so dear has been summed up in a final paragraph viz. 'Fascinating argument.... I win'.

Suffice to say I've duly added you to my 'list', the title of which I'm reluctant to divulge in case there are small children reading.

---Matt

Matt wrote:

>> Likewise people can (and have) defended those actions/jokes.
>> All it effectively does is allow silly little me to add a couple of names
>> to my 'rather-not-bother' list - which also includes a couple of rank
>> hypocrites and a couple of hospitality abusers...
> Dear F
> I am hoping dearly that I am already on your 'list', if not please could you
> add me asap.
> 
> Matt

Don't worry Matt , I got myself on that list by accidentally posting a VCF card with a post once . Either that or F just plain ignores a couple of recent bits of praise for web design and sensible views .

Still , looking forward to "Tie Front Bum" on Saturday !

Dv

On Mon, 08 Jun 1998 14:09:18 GMT, D wrote:

> I disagree. I think everyone is racist to a certain extent. In my
> opinion wanting England to win in the World Cup could be called racist
> but there's going to be very few people getting upset by it. Most
> people would say it's perfectly natural to support your own team.

Personally, I can't see any reason at all to support a bunch of people that I've never met in my life, and to whose success I have in no way contributed. I'll support a team mate up of friends, but not one made up of strangers.

But then I've been told I'm weird. :)

> Basically I want to live in a world where there are no rules to stop
> someone saying/doing something antisocial but it would also have to be
> a world where no-one wanted to do anything antisocial in the first
> place.

Exactly - my ideal form of government would be anarchy, but only in a world full of nice people. :)

J

D speaks da truth...
> <Snip some well-considered comments on the whole damn thing>

Great post, D. :O)

Cheers,

JA

Agreed, but whatever has happen to PLUR in all this? and how come everyone is defending them self?

DJ writes:

> 
> Agreed, but whatever has happen to PLUR in all this?
> and how come everyone is defending them self?

Ah but IMO PLUR can also be about discussion and listening to another point of view. When people take the time to make a considered comment on another's views... don't you think that's PLUR?

DJ wrote:

> 
> Agreed, but whatever has happen to PLUR in all this?

Ah. but for the most part this is a real discussion. There has not been much slagging which suggests a bit of respect. Most of it is reasoned comment which is the best way of understanding how others feel and also the best way to see where your own ideals are failing. It would be a very boring world if everyone agreed with each other all the time. The trick is to make sure the disagreements are handled with respect.

> and how come everyone is defending them self?

Probably because it's an important subject. I doubt if any of us are 100% right about it but airing our views might make us get nearer to the solution. Agreement is not always the best way to move forward.

D

D wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:47:27 +0100, DJ wrote:

> 
>> 
>> Agreed, but whatever has happen to PLUR in all this?
> 
> Ah. but for the most part this is a real discussion. There has not
> been much slagging which suggests a bit of respect. Most of it is
> reasoned comment which is the best way of understanding how others
> feel and also the best way to see where your own ideals are failing.
> It would be a very boring world if everyone agreed with each other all
> the time. The trick is to make sure the disagreements are handled with
> respect.
> 

True, all that im saying, i feel that the poor person that made the joke, didn't mean to have the response that he had,

>> and how come everyone is defending them self?
> 
> Probably because it's an important subject. I doubt if any of us are
> 100% right about it but airing our views might make us get nearer to
> the solution. Agreement is not always the best way to move forward.
> 

True also, but everyone in the nation will have to change there attitudes, not just one race. but the thing is in our generation, maybe its already too late, and we all must educate our next generation b4 its too late

D wrote:

> Probably because it's an important subject. I doubt if any of us are
> 100% right about it but airing our views might make us get nearer to
> the solution. Agreement is not always the best way to move forward.

Absolutely.

Oh shit, I just agreed with you. ;)

J