NA wrote:

> The only way to fix the problem long term, IMHO, is for people to live
> in more mixed groups. It's very easy for people to say they're not
> racist, if they've never met a black man, for example.

I'd never really met any blacks until I moved to High Wycombe and went to secondary school. The only black kid in the school was in my class and we became good friends. It never occurred to me to treat him any differently to the white kids, because I'd never been taught to. Something to thank my parents for...

I doubt any of us can claim that we're not prejudiced in any way. We all tend to make generalisations - it's part of the way we think. what really matters is whether we actively try to put those prejudices aside when dealing with other people. Whether we're aware of our tendencies to general and try to overcome them.

J

Whilst I'm sure most Irish people would laugh at this joke as it's not particularly racist (not like some) and is more re: pronunciation than 'stupidity', it was still not a wise or thoughtful move on UMR. In the FAQ it states plainly that UMR is an anglo-Irish group, and is only uk.music... because there isn't a usenet prefix to encompass both Britain and the Republic of Ireland, and that having ie.music.rave would segregate material that would be of interest to both British and Irish ravers. So considering the fact that there are a lot of Irish readers, lurkers and posters on this group, it was a bit inconsiderate. I mean, would you send a joke starting "There was this poof who..." to alt.fan.barbra.streisand ?????

Anyway, I'll print the joke off, show it to my (Irish) wife-to-be and see what she thinks. But I'm sure she will reflect J's views that it just so happens that it isn't all that offensive but that it is unnecessary and should be confined to the realms of alt.jokes.tasteless.irish if there is such a place.

I'm not advocating censorship, just more thought when it comes to off-topic postings...

T

T wrote:

> would you send a joke starting "There was this poof who..." to
> alt.fan.barbra.streisand ?????

Aieee!!!

It's all going to start again now.

<holds head in hands>

J

J wrote:

> It's all going to start again now.
> 
> <holds head in hands>
> 
> J
> --
> 

Or - we can turn it into a intelligent thought-provoking sig.file thread. Goethe, Tennesse Williams, Bertrand Russell...

CL

(What I like about sig.files is that they sort of imply you've read the whole book/play/whatever. Well I haven't!)

L wrote:

> Or - we can turn it into a intelligent thought-provoking
> sig.file thread. Goethe, Tennesse Williams, Bertrand
> Russell...

generators do often acquire a kind of sentience, according to internet folklore... :)

> (What I like about sig.files is that they sort of imply
> you've read the whole book/play/whatever. Well I haven't!)

I collect quotes - I've got books full of them here, and subscribe to a couple of lists. I just shove ones I like in the data file for the program that randomly selects them. :)

J

J wrote:

>> (What I like about sig.files is that they sort of imply
>> you've read the whole book/play/whatever. Well I haven't!)
> 
> I collect quotes - I've got books full of them here, and subscribe to
> a couple of lists. I just shove ones I like in the data file for the
> program that randomly selects them. :)

Although I'm going to cheat now and manually select this one...

J

J wrote:

> Although I'm going to cheat now and manually select this one...
> 
> J
> "The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit."
>  - Somerset Maugham

Dear Everyone

Er, nothing.

CL

The Cabinet Prayer

Vicar: Look God, keep us within Tory spending limits; but somehow, help us look after the sick and the kids and stuff too. Congregation: And silence dissent with gags. Vicar: And let me cover the land with private prisons. Congregation: And never let out the lags. Vicar: And stop asylum-seekers coming here by land, water, or air. Congregation: For we don't want to see their rags. Vicar: And tell the fatherless children that their mothers must work until they drop. Congregation: For they are nothing but slags. Vicar: And tell them their mothers can expect no money from me. Congregation: For they'll only spend it on fags.

All: Amen

J wrote:

>> would you send a joke starting "There was this poof who..." to
>> alt.fan.barbra.streisand ?????
> 
> Aieee!!!

I hope that wasn't your Linux machine.. :o)

T wrote:

: would you send a joke starting "There was this poof who..." to : alt.fan.barbra.streisand ?????

No. But I wouldn't post this comment to UMR either. If I were a gay Irish man, I'd find the implication that I'm a Barbra Streisand fan because of my sexual pref more insulting than the implication that my accent would lead me to jump off a cliff wearing parrots. Not being a gay Irish man, however, I find them both equally silly.

S

K wrote:

> No. But I wouldn't post this comment to UMR either.
> If I were a gay Irish man, I'd find the implication that I'm a Barbra Streisand
> fan because of my sexual pref more insulting than the implication that my
> accent would lead me to jump off a cliff wearing parrots.

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, and no offence was meant. Blimey aren't UMRers a PC, touchy lot! Oh dear sorry I didn't mean to generalise or stereotype you, and sorry if I caused offence to any UMRers who are non-touchy and can take a joke. ;-) T

T wrote:

>> No. But I wouldn't post this comment to UMR either.
>> If I were a gay Irish man, I'd find the implication that I'm a Barbra Streisand
>> fan because of my sexual pref more insulting than the implication that my
>> accent would lead me to jump off a cliff wearing parrots.
> 
> It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, and no offence was meant.

Are all gay men camp? Do all blacks have a natural sense of rhythm? Are all women bad drivers? Are all gypsies thieves? And so on and so on. Stereotypes reinforce prejudice - if we know it's not true, why say it?

> Blimey aren't UMRers a PC, touchy lot!

Maybe some of us are. But personally I get really pissed off at the way being "politically correct" has almost become an insult in itself. Sure, there are a small minority of people who've taken it to near-laughable extremes. To me, however, PC just means not offending people by being careless about what I say. And in my book there's nothing wrong with that.

Yeah, maybe I'm touchy. But I've spent my whole life being treated differently by 75% of the people I come into contact with, because I'm in a wheelchair. Nothing aggressive, thankfully, not since I was a kid at least. But it's still there, and I face it every day - most of us do, in one way or another. We're all different, but if we continually emphasise those differences then we make barriers out of them.

> Oh dear sorry I didn't mean to
> generalise or stereotype you, and sorry if I caused offence to any
> UMRers who are non-touchy and can take a joke. ;-)

Just because it's a joke, that doesn't mean it's not prejudicial. Surely that's what this thread is all about? Subtle prejudice and so on?

J

J wrote:

> <snip interesting prejudice stuff>

> ........................................................
>  "A man's manners are a mirror in which he shows his portrait."
>  - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

It's sort of strange to be talking about manners, isn't it? One definition I heard was, that bad manners are behaviour or language which makes other people feel uncomfortable. If you're completely insensitive to other people's feelings it does greatly expand your joke repertoire, but maybe not the number of people who are going to ask for your phone number.

CL

- What's the secret of happiness? - Insensivitity, I guess. Tennessee Williams

L wrote:

> J wrote:

> 
>> <snip interesting prejudice stuff>
> 
>> ........................................................
>>  "A man's manners are a mirror in which he shows his portrait."
>>  - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
> 
> 
> It's sort of strange to be talking about manners, isn't it? One
> definition I heard was, that bad manners are behaviour or
> language which makes other people feel uncomfortable. If you're
> completely insensitive to other people's feelings it does greatly
> expand your joke repertoire, but maybe not the number of people
> who are going to ask for your phone number.

Exactly. Which is why I feel a bit like my mum talking about this kind of thing, sometimes. ;) It's part of my basic nature to want to avoid offending people, that's just the way I was brought up.

Sometimes I'll be offensive deliberately - either for humour (ie. insulting friends rather than telling dodgy jokes), or to make a point about something, usually when I'm really angry and feeling a bit of righteous (or possibly self-righteous) indignation.

If someone knows a joke may offend some people, then I can't understand why they go ahead and tell it. I have to *really* dislike someone before I'll *want* to offend them.

Possibly I come across as being a bit holier-than-thou as a result, but insults get in the way of the ideas being discussed. Once people start attacking each other they're not really communicating.

It's a bit like netiquette, which I've seen defined as "not being an arsehole - use your common sense". After all, netiquette is just good manners on the net.

> - What's the secret of happiness?
> - Insensivitity, I guess.
>  Tennessee Williams

I like that quote. :)

J

T wrote:

> 
> K wrote:

<SNIP>
>> If I were a gay Irish man, I'd find the implication that I'm a Barbra Streisand
>> fan because of my sexual pref more insulting than ...
<SNIP>
Anyway, I was not saying that gay people automatically like Barbra Streisand, I would never be so facetious. What I was joking at is that most of Barbra Streisand fans are gay, which is quite a different matter. No one can take offence at this comment, and if they do then they are in fact making an anti-Gay comment themselves, as they would be saying that I shouldn't be disrespectful to *Barbra Streisand* for saying the bulk of her fans are gay, which is of course not what I meant at all. So there. --